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1_0 Flaws

Page history last edited by Osuji 10 years, 10 months ago

Known Flaws in V1.0

Formatting notes:

Black text indicates an issue that is not yet resolved

Green text indicates an issue is resolved

Orange text indicates an unresolved issue that will carry over into the next version

No issues are to be deleted though sometimes the issue can be restated to make it clearer

New issues are always added to the end of the list, never inserted earlier in the list (this keeps the numbers consistent



  1. Play tends to stay in the ports too much
  2. Entry points can be guarded by other tiles
  3. Entry points can be blocked by other tiles
  4. Drop-move-drop-move system is too predictable, and serves only to slow down the game.
  5. Flowers moving by themselves is not logically intuitive
  6. Symbol on the dragon tile isn't logically intuitive
  7. Symbol on the wheel tile isn't logically intuitive for Air
  8. The Knot Weed isn't logically intuitive for Fire
  9. Tile balance needs to be refined (overall)
  10. Scoring system needs refinement
  11. Limited entry points make newly entered tiles vulnerable, requiring them to be protected from capture for 1 move.
  12. Harmonies are too easy to create too early in the game, leading to slow development, and large first player advantages
  13. System for creating harmony is not intuitive based on the flowers' shapes or colors
  14. The Lotus tile is supposed to be a minor piece yet it is given special powers
  15. Current system of harmony is not based on harmony between the elements but instead seems to be based on Primary Secondary and Complementary colors (without actually using them) 
  16. Board symbolism is vague at best and uses terms that do not agree like "ports" and "gardens"
  17. Current notation instructions refer to left and right but should be changed to refer to the S-N axis and the E-W axis so no matter where you sit at the board the the x and y axis can be differentiated.
  18. Current notation requires careful disambiguation while it is being written and read, consider changing to a Single Quadrant system with letters and numbers
  19. Some intersections near the edge of the board are not obviously playable; consider adding star points (like those seen on Go-bans), to make them stand out as playable. 
  20. Can the wheel rotate one tile through another tile?
  21. When the wheel rotates more than one tile must the tiles being rotated retain the same angular distance from each other at the end of the move as they had at the beginning of the move?
  22. Can the Wheel rotate one tile onto another, and if so what happens to the other tile? is it captured, or is it pushed out of the way? If there is a capture which tile is removed, or is it both?
  23. The first-turn-protection is probably too strong, especially for dropped Elements, and tiles which threaten to capture as they leave a port
  24. Specific rules concerning the affect or restrictions on red / white tiles in red/white gardens seem to be missing from the rules.
  25. Specific rules regarding "fences" are not mentioned in the rules
  26. Specific rules detailing the use and behavior of the yellow gardens are missing from the rules
  27. A more complete explanation of the ports is needed  
  28. Suicide/Kamikaze capture as a feature of Elemental tiles is unintuitive and maybe not necessary
  29. The relative movements of The Flower tiles' is very unbalanced (specifically)
  30. Wheel notation examples need to be expanded
  31. Boat rules need to be updated
  32. Tile graphics need to be added.
  33. Drop capture  still possible.
  34. There is no Pot in the current rules
  35. Harmony points as a victory condition cause capture to become too dominant a strategy
  36. Capture centric strategies virtually remove the value of harmony and final scores become very low if not creating draws
  37. Point limits turn the game into a point race rather than providing a tactical objective
  38. Reducing the point limit when a tile is captured makes the point race go faster making deeper strategies even less likely
  39. There is no reason to enter all of the tiles provided and many tiles go unused during the game
  40. There is more than one Lotus tile but ATLA suggests there is only one
  41. Stronger tiles lack weaknesses for weaker tiles to exploit
  42. The order of the sections should be changed to better explain concepts
    1. Gardens should come before intersections
    2. Walls should come between gardens and intersections
  43. Net Harmony / Disharmony needs better structure and explanation
    1. harmony scoring isn't consistently explained
  44. Harmony Chains result in one tile at the beginning of the chain being weaker or in reciprocal foreign harmonies depending on how harmony is distributed across the chain.
    1. Weaker tile is easy to attack
    2. Total chain harmony harmony for every tile makes chains impossible to attack
    3. Credit for sending and receiving harmony results in foreign reciprocal harmony





Comments (17)

Cyril said

at 4:44 pm on Jan 19, 2012

I guess numbers 20, 21 and 22 can be removed, given the fact that the Wheels ability is now more clearly defined?

Osuji said

at 4:59 pm on Jan 19, 2012

no don't remove them. we may want to refer to prior issues when ideas get revisited. we could mark them resolved or add some color or something

Osuji said

at 7:39 pm on Jan 19, 2012

I still need to revise 1.0 rules to reflect 17 so we shouldn't mark it resolved yet. only things that have been added to the rules should be marked.

Cyril said

at 9:25 pm on Jan 19, 2012

True, I'll change that. By the way, I'm a bit confused as to who will "administrate" the rules page. I think if one person just adds new rules as soon as they're decided, we get the least mistakes. So, seeing that you have been managing the page so far, I'd say you just keep supervision (?) over it. Is that ok? I fear we might loose track and the rules wouldn't get as clear as possible if not one member has an overview over what is mentioned where. It's not like the rules are 10 pages long, but so far I have not brought up the guts to change things by myself. I guess it would be more confusing than productive.

Osuji said

at 5:49 am on Jan 26, 2012

Yes that is fine. If there seems to be something missing that has been decided it should be added as a flaw to the list on this page. That way if someone else has to take over the role of supervising the rules there is a record of what has been done and what needs yet to be done. It's probably a good idea for you to review the closed discussions for all agreements again and then add any that are missing from the current rules to the list of flaws here. Since you participated in most of the discussions you are the best person for that job. I'd suggest you review them all before adding the flaws here so you don't add things that later changed.

Osuji said

at 6:00 am on Jan 26, 2012

I changed your recent additions and expanded them somewhat. First we never want to add a flaw as a question. It just creates confusion. If it's in question then should we fix it in the rules now, or should we wait for a discussion and some agreement? Second its always best to break flaws up into their smallest possible parts. That way they can be addressed one at a time. If we add one item to the list that describes multiple flaws it's possible to mark it as complete when only part of it was done, or worse it never gets completed because it has so much stuff in it. In item 24 I kept the issues of tiles and gardens together because it's really one issue about how the two interact.

Cyril said

at 1:09 pm on Jan 26, 2012

That's what I was thinking, is the ports/gardens/colors thing essential or not? If it is, we maybe have to discuss it now and add it to the rules of 1.0 instead of postponing them to 2.0.
For example, in the two test games i've been playing, I used the "no red flowers in white gardens" rule and there were two (or so) situations where it came to use, so if we don't have these rules, my test games may not make much sense as games (for certain questions, yes, but not as normal games).

Osuji said

at 1:38 pm on Jan 26, 2012

I think it does need to be added even if we decide to remove it later. There will likely be a 1.5 set of rules for changes that depart widely from the 1.0 / Wiki Pai Sho variants, but which are still mostly Wiki Pai Sho. My point was simply flaws are never questions. Ideas that have not been resolved shouldn't be added here unless they are hold over's from Wiki Pai Sho that didn't make it into the 1.0 rule set. 1.0 flaw 24 clearly meets that standard. Since the notation system examples in 1.0 already refer to bending captures using the garden/flower missmatch, it makes sense that it be clarified in those rules.

michielewiel said

at 11:19 pm on Mar 3, 2012

Hey i got a little idea for a long time that coud solve 29 what if you need to have x amount of pieces deafted before yo uca

michielewiel said

at 11:23 pm on Mar 3, 2012

*you can add a dragon or lotus tile and maybe a diffrent amount before you coud place element's tile's and maybe an x amount of some tile's deafted before u can add a roderon and jade cause they have the best movemen't i am not that certain about the last bit with the jade and roderon but anyway i don't know if this is a good idea or not
with best regards michielewiel

Osuji said

at 12:48 pm on Mar 16, 2012

This is an interesting idea but I anticipate lots of down side. We should consider a discussion on this idea once we catch up with the housekeeping issues and the two pending discussions. I think this has been tried before or something like it. Perhaps there is a new approach to be evaluated.

Red Kutai said

at 6:51 pm on May 2, 2012

This actually sounds like a two-birds, one-stone approach - if you assume 'The Pot' refers to the pool of captured tiles from either player, then put Pot size requirements on powerful tiles. The immediate issue is that it proposes a 'win more' issue, where aggressive players gain access to stronger pieces more quickly. However, if we were to add the requirement that a player can play those tiles only in response to having a tile captured (since opponents can only capture tiles on their own turns, yes?), it discourages overly aggressive strategies increases the potential for players to run profitable gambits...

Cyril said

at 11:50 am on May 1, 2012

I reckon that the points 9 and 29 are enssentially the same. The tiles' unbalanced-ness in general only comes from their unbalanced movement styles, as their harmony features are basically equal. So shouldn't that be taken into one single point?

And apart from that, points 2, 11 and 33 are about to be resolved in the current Torii discussion. We can keep in mind that we mark them solved as soon as there is an agreement.

Osuji said

at 12:19 pm on May 1, 2012

9 & 29 are subtlety different. I have marked he others as resolved and added the pot as a missing issue.

Cyril said

at 12:34 pm on May 1, 2012

I thought the pot contained all captured tiles...? The only problem should be that it currently has no meaning.

Osuji said

at 12:54 pm on May 1, 2012

It isn't even mentioned apart from needing discussion.

Cyril said

at 7:46 pm on Jul 17, 2014

This page is ridiculously outdated. Without the maintenance effort needed to run a page like this, I will move this to "outdated" soon.

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